tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post512016922343184143..comments2023-12-25T21:43:14.986-08:00Comments on sororNishi: Mystified Musings on Madame Mesh.sororNishihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17385408562954387986noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-28370740119110491342010-09-26T14:48:46.510-07:002010-09-26T14:48:46.510-07:00Now, that's a good bit of advice..... thanks.....Now, that's a good bit of advice..... thanks...:))sororNishihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17385408562954387986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-43251490609261065252010-09-26T14:26:34.619-07:002010-09-26T14:26:34.619-07:00Don't worry Soror, make some trees and be happ...Don't worry Soror, make some trees and be happycube republichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195176643559215016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-61283268169713997542010-09-16T23:48:33.047-07:002010-09-16T23:48:33.047-07:00*tries untangling Wizard's poor antennae*
Con...*tries untangling Wizard's poor antennae*<br /><br />Conditioner... :D@soror<br /><br />Ok, technically this is all fine and swelly. However, I will echo Brinda: I don't give a fig if I can have perfect mesh boobies and calves if I can't find a darn thing in Search, or use a Group Chat channel that becomes useless in 3 minutes. <br /><br />Likewise, if the economic base of SL hadn't been jerked around, backhanded, put off, treated like chattel and little bitty data points on some naive wet-behind-the-ears MBA's chart, causing increasing revenue loss and entailing chopping the server farms down to three Pentium IIIs and a 486, we might not have the prim problem that prevents megas being standard (they work just swell in IW)and entail the need for Barbie Hair.<br /><br /><br />Hopefully, no one is foolish enough to think that this could be used to carve a couple pennies off of everyone buying new dresses for new avatars in the same way the great cd/dvd/bluray/HDMI swindle has been going; if so, they'd better catch up to the current backlash in sales figures for this type of switcheroo.<br /><br /><br />I don't know why this simple statement, echoed by thousands of SL residents over several years, does not make an impression on The Guys' scrambling about for a "k1ll3r @pp" and bemoaning the loss of the userbase... especially when given the current 'Face20cloud' focus:<br /><br />SECOND LIFE IS A SOCIAL MEDIUM. FACILITATING SOCIAL TOOLS IN SL ARE BROKEN (sim crossing, prim jumping, Group Chat and Notices, Inventory). I DON'T GIVE A POODLE'S FLUFFY BUTT ABOUT UPPING MY DEVA PROFILE IF I CAN'T TALK TO MY FRIENDS AND GET NOTICES OF SHOWS AND GET-TOGETHERS.<br /><br />*phew*<br /><br />*puts more conditioner on Wizzy's antennae*Miso Susanowahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14628657533849686313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-59617078095051152852010-09-16T23:17:17.069-07:002010-09-16T23:17:17.069-07:00See my first post here...
All this is wonderful......See my first post here...<br />All this is wonderful...fix the damn problems we have NOW first!<br />And btw...fast easy fun? *face palms*Brindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01722102008502506117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-4232047847414003302010-09-16T23:05:43.981-07:002010-09-16T23:05:43.981-07:00Thanks again Indigo, these are exactly the sort of...Thanks again Indigo, these are exactly the sort of details we need to know.sororNishihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17385408562954387986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-14669582856232756912010-09-16T23:04:36.008-07:002010-09-16T23:04:36.008-07:00Indigo Mertal added.....I see Gianna already comme...Indigo Mertal added.....I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantageous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.<br /><br />The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.<br /><br />About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render.<br /><br />As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.<br /><br />You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.sororNishihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17385408562954387986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-41513222432486093002010-09-16T16:34:27.424-07:002010-09-16T16:34:27.424-07:00Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of...Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of rendered polygons they are far more laggy.<br /><br />As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.<br /><br />You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.Indigo Mertelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05133128618256487243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-13760696661427052482010-09-16T16:33:51.815-07:002010-09-16T16:33:51.815-07:00I see Gianna already commented on your post about ...I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantegeous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.<br /><br />The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.<br /><br />About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render. (cont)Indigo Mertelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05133128618256487243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-27615322169620547042010-09-16T16:08:23.287-07:002010-09-16T16:08:23.287-07:00Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of...Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of rendered polygons they are far more laggy.<br /><br />As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.<br /><br />You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.Indigo Mertelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05133128618256487243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-75128322367825173552010-09-16T16:07:36.885-07:002010-09-16T16:07:36.885-07:00I see Gianna already commented on your post about ...I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantegeous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.<br /><br />The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.<br /><br />About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render.Indigo Mertelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05133128618256487243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-89858218023709797192010-09-16T16:06:55.349-07:002010-09-16T16:06:55.349-07:00I see Gianna already commented on your post about ...I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantegeous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.<br /><br />The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.<br /><br />About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render. <br /><br />Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of rendered polygons they are far more laggy.<br /><br />As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.<br /><br />You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.Indigo Mertelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05133128618256487243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-67899014264198413942010-09-16T16:05:58.806-07:002010-09-16T16:05:58.806-07:00I see Gianna already commented on your post about ...I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantegeous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.<br /><br />The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.<br /><br />About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render. <br /><br />Most sculpt chairs are only 1 prim but in terms of rendered polygons they are far more laggy. The number of polygons rendered by a sculpt is far higher.<br /><br />As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.<br /><br />You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.Indigo Mertelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05133128618256487243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-13231804659003120762010-09-16T16:03:23.113-07:002010-09-16T16:03:23.113-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Indigo Mertelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05133128618256487243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-62750317755820709472010-09-16T15:46:18.802-07:002010-09-16T15:46:18.802-07:00I see Gianna already commented on your post about ...I see Gianna already commented on your post about some incorrect details. I have to add that setting a prim cost based on the complexity of the mesh is a decision taken by LL to avoid overloading servers. Lindens had to determine an algorithm to make mesh cost less in terms of prims, so to make it advantageous to use, but not to the point of causing additional lag.<br /><br />The same is true about LoD shapes. They are needed in order to reduce the number of triangles to render in a region when at distance. The Lindens run some tests to verify the number of rendered triangles when an avatar is positioned at one corner of a region full of mesh objects as to determine an acceptable factor and avoid additional lag. The Lindens will provide tools to create LoD and collision shapes automatically, though better results will be held manually.<br /><br />About the number of polygons to render, please consider that a region today supports 15K prims and if all those prims were cubes that would amount to 162K polygons. Even more with more complex shapes. Considering that a mesh has a prim cost, mesh objects would replace and reduce the number of polygons to render.<br /><br />As for the textures currently used in SL, this has been discussed during the beta test. I don't exactly remember the details of what had been discussed but what I remember is that it should be possible to texture a mesh object inworld just as you would with a sculpt. Of course, just as with sculpts, the best results come with a 3D tool. Take this with a grain of salt because as a beta tester I was more an observer avid of information than any real help, as my 3D skills are still very limited and the technological details are not easy to grasp.<br /><br />You also need to consider that mesh shapes are still in beta, there are still issues that need to be ironed out and this is a first implementation.Indigo Mertelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05133128618256487243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-47391887503407101472010-09-16T15:34:12.939-07:002010-09-16T15:34:12.939-07:00phew. most of that goes right over my avatar'...phew. most of that goes right over my avatar's head. (and gets tangled up in my antennae.)Wizzy Gynoidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08835960741559366869noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-82124120102867914742010-09-16T15:26:49.431-07:002010-09-16T15:26:49.431-07:00thank you. That does clarify the texture issue for...thank you. That does clarify the texture issue for me.sororNishihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17385408562954387986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-41380154884743478012010-09-16T15:21:38.329-07:002010-09-16T15:21:38.329-07:00To clarify, I guess you *could* texture a mesh wit...To clarify, I guess you *could* texture a mesh with a texture from your inventory.. but similar to sculpted prims, depending on the object, it could be hit or miss if you're not the creator. For example.. with a mesh roof.. I could pull out a different shingle texture and replace it. On the flip side, if I had a complex object like a car, unless I wanted a plain car-shaped object, I could not simply just drag and drop a texture from my inventory. I would need the UV snapshot of that object to properly texture it. I hope that makes more sense. <br /><br />You are 100% percent right in saying that there is an argument for mega prims and lag, but meshes have more upside, and the reason LL doesn't approve of mega prims is due to parcel encroachment. <br /><br />As for 60k polygon meshes.. you would have to have a TON of prims in order to upload that mesh. In reference to avatars, LL is already discussing (as announced at SLCC) ARC limitations regardless of mesh or not. However, depending on the mesh.. yes, a 60k polygon mesh could cause lag and strain on the servers, but still less then most examples currently in SL. For instance, Runitai Linden gave the example of a current and common pair of sculpted men's shoes that were 80 prims and 80k polygons for the pair. These same shoes created as meshes could be made using roughly 2 prims and a couple hundred polygons for the pair.Gianna Borgninehttp://www.changingworldsbuildingdreams.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-16482088501478836162010-09-16T15:03:54.220-07:002010-09-16T15:03:54.220-07:00(cont.)...It is extremely unlikely that a designer...(cont.)...It is extremely unlikely that a designer is going to take time out to design an avatar the same shape as the current SL avatar, so I hold by assertion that if you want to change outfits you will need to buy a new mesh.<br /> The hair I am still totally unconvinced by, but as we both agree that meshes will be more used for the bug-eyed monsters, it is really not an issue.<br />I look forward to seeing your tutorial but have to say that most sculptie chairs are 1 prim. The tree I am interested in.<br /><br />Again, thank you for your time.sororNishihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17385408562954387986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-10987877877246298902010-09-16T14:53:34.556-07:002010-09-16T14:53:34.556-07:00Well thank you for taking the time to explain that...Well thank you for taking the time to explain that. it is probably something that I should have known , but the only information I had was from the Sand castle studio blog.<br /><br />As I said at the beginning I welcome the chance to use meshes, and time will tell.<br /><br />Just to correct you on textures tho, I can apply any texture in my library to a sculpted prim. I understood from your blog that I would not be able to do that with a mesh...making all my textures useless for texturing meshes.<br /><br />While I understood the argument for meshes and lag, I am correct in saying that a similar argument for megas is totally discounted by the Lab at this time.<br /><br />...and 60k polygons is gonna be a load that the poor servers are not gonna be able to cope with as, currently, they can't even load a texture without complaining.sororNishihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17385408562954387986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-86869947282453385912010-09-16T14:33:21.184-07:002010-09-16T14:33:21.184-07:00You stated that you would no longer be able to tex...You stated that you would no longer be able to texture a mesh and so textures would be useless. Just like you can't just put any texture on a sculpted prim, you can't do this on a mesh either. However, you can still use your textures, just in a proper UV for the mesh. <br /><br />You also stated the fact that one mesh does not equal one prim (although it can), as if the conversion was a bad thing. Most meshes will be extremely low prim (if done right). For example.. later today on our blog, I will be releasing a tutorial of how to create a mesh chair in Maya. That chair (like most chairs)has a back, a seat, spokes, legs, etc. It would normally be about 9 prims, but as a mesh it is only 1 prim. This can extend to much larger objects as well though. There is a giant, detailed tree that was created in closed mesh beta that would normally be like 30 prims, but it was only like 5 prims as a mesh. <br /><br />The argument you gave for lag is also incorrect. It is not just that a mesh is less prims, it is that a mesh is less polygons. This is explained in detail with pictures here - http://changingworldsbuildingdreams.com/linden-lab-offically-announces-mesh-support-in-second-life-at-slcc, but in a nutshell.. each face (side) of a prim cube in Second Life is made up of 18 individual triangles or polygons. If you create a cube in SL, and go into wireframe mode, you can see them and count them for yourself. A mesh cube could be created with only two triangles per face. So with some simple math.. a cube has 6 sides or faces.. 18 x 6 = 108. This verses 2 x 6 = 12. Now imagine rendering 50 cubes. That's 5,400 polygons verses 600. Not only will this reduce lag, it will greatly improve performance. <br /><br />The advantages of mesh are not only great, they are still unseen. Linden Lab as opened a door, where the potential opportunities are endless. I think once more people understand meshes, they will come to love them.Gianna Borgninehttp://www.changingworldsbuildingdreams.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-59846890166155704502010-09-16T14:32:49.883-07:002010-09-16T14:32:49.883-07:00I respect your opinion and I appreciate and thank ...I respect your opinion and I appreciate and thank you for posting a link to my post and work, but there are a lot of things that are factually incorrect in your post.<br /><br />The rigged mesh avatar you chose to feature is only one example of something one person created, it is by no means representative of what a rigged avatar mesh is or can be.<br /><br />While I don't think most standard avatars will be replaced by rigged meshes (they will be more useful for non-human avatars or game design/machinima characters)let's just say for a moment someone did create a human mesh avatar to replace their current avatar. It doesn't have to be shiny or metallic/plastic looking. In fact, with some time, detail, and quality texturing.. it could look extremely realistic. As you mentioned yourself.. our current SL avatars are meshes (though they are actually irregular meshes.. you can think of an irregular mesh as a polygon mesh in which the polygons are NOT laid out in neat or predictable pattern). If the designer/creator made their new avatar match the UV's of the standard SL avatar, then the mesh avatar could change clothes, etc just like any other avatar. While you are right in stating that you would not be able to modify the shape of your mesh avatar (although meshes do not use sculpt maps, they are exported into SL via a COLLADA file) many creators sell no mod shapes. And just to correct your statement that you would need to generate 5 meshes to change your mesh avatar's shape.. a rigged avatar does not need collision, and though it still needs the 4 Levels of Detail, as I said and you quoted, SL can generate the LoDs for you. Just to clarify though, once in world, all 4 Levels of Detail are bundled into one asset/object. <br /><br />As for hair. Mesh hair would not look like concrete. In fact, it would look as detailed as current hair in SL, if not more so. But just like most current hair is made up of regular and sculpted prims together, I speculate mesh hair will be much the same to allow for flexi. However, the bonus of using mesh hair is that you could bind the mesh strands to your shoulders so that they didn't go through your avatar and instead move with the body of your avatar.<br /><br />continued below..Gianna Borgninehttp://www.changingworldsbuildingdreams.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8590156455847470480.post-42075199042944779962010-09-16T10:15:55.637-07:002010-09-16T10:15:55.637-07:00My gosh...
We have the "submarine effect"...My gosh...<br />We have the "submarine effect" at sim crossings (but we are gonna get name changes).<br />We have a broken search (but here come meshes).<br /><br />My grandfather told me a very long time ago about the "Kiss principle" (keep it simple stupid!)<br />Innovation is great...but just look at the fantastic builds available now...why not make everything we now have work? (Or is this a case of give us "new & shiny" to keep us from seeing the man behind the curtain. Thats what we do with a crying baby...give them a shiny and they forget for a minute they arent geting fed.Brindahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01722102008502506117noreply@blogger.com